[MAJ] Que font r�ellement les actions dans Age Of Steam ? [EDIT]

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Karl Reiner, suite. Apr�s avoir expliqu� pourquoi l\’argent est si rare dans Age Of Steam la semaine derni�re, Karl �voque cette semaine ce que font r�ellement les actions individuelles dans Age Of Steam. Tout un programme.

Ce qui peut �tre l\’occasion de lire (ou relire en cas de d�soeuvrement extr�me) ma tentative sur le m�me sujet, notamment en contradiction compl�te sur l\’action Turn Order.

Un de nous deux se plante, c\’est sur, mais qui ?


[EDIT 18/3] Karl r�pond sur la question du Turn Order (en anglais pour l\’instant, je traduirais si je trouve le courage et le temps). Prenez votre temps pour lire, c\’est argument�. voici ce qu\’il m\’a envoy� :I would be glad to explain why the Turn Order action is more valuable when you are already early in the turn order. We can do several cost-benefeit comparisons to illustrate. Bear in mind that the benefeits and costs are BOTH financial and positional.

First, let�s look at what happens to turn order in bidding sequences where Turn Order is not chosen at all, using a 5 player game as an example. I have seven scenarios, all of which assume that all players� maximum bid is $3.

a) You are the first player. You pass. Now you are the last player in the new turn order. There is of course no cost to you, but you have descended -4 positions on the order.

b) You are the first player. You bid your maximum value, let us say $3. No one else bids, and therefore you retain your positioning in first place. The financial penalty you pay is $3, with no drop or gain in turn order.

c) You are the first player. You bid a minimum amount, let us say $1. There are two overcall bids, of $2 and $3 respectively, from the next two players. The final two players pass. Now you decide to pass, as you cannot exceed your maximum. You are now in 3rd position, and have expended $1 for a net drop of -2 positions.

d) You are the last player. All players in front of you pass. You are now the first player in the new turn order, at no cost, for a net gain of +4 positions.

e) You are the last player. The first player has made his maximum bid of $3. All other players have passed. You decide to pass, as your maximum is also Three dollars. You are now second on turn order, at no cost, for a net gain of +3 positions.

f) You are the last player. The first player has made a minimum bid of $1, followed by $2 and $3 from the next two players. The person ahead of you passes. You also pass, moving you up from fifth to fourth spot, at no cost, for a gain of +1 positions.

g) You are the last player. Two players ahead of you pass and two players ahead of you bid $1 and $2 respectively. You now bid your maximum $3. All other players pass, and you are now first in turn order, at a cost of $3, and a net gain of +4 positions.

Note that I have chosen to omit a scenario where the first 3 players pass and the fourth one bids his maximum. That scenario is damaging to the first 3 players, who drop the maximum amount, and damaging to the fourth player, who is probably overpaying to move up from second place to first. Even should this occur, the last place player will move to second place for a cost of nothing

As can be seen in the first three scenarios, the natural tendency is to fall in turn order, from first to last, or to require a fairly hefty bid to retain your position. In contrast, the last bidder has a natural and overwhelming tendency to rise in the turn order regardless of whether he is making a bid. The last player will especially benefeit when players early in the turn order exert the greatest pressure on other bidders by bidding close to their own maximum dollar value. This is important to note: again, when other players are using best-play practices, the last player will move sharply forward in turn order at no cost, whereas players earlier in the turn order will move downwards.

Note that I have chosen to omit a scenario where the first 3 players pass and the fourth one bids his maximum. That scenario is damaging to the first 3 players, who drop the maximum amount, and damaging to the fourth player, who is probably overpaying to move up from second place to first. Even should this occur, the last place player will move to second place for no cost, as per the �buoyancy� factor illustrated in cases d), e), f) and g).

Now consider all seven cases again, this time using Turn Order.

a) You are the first player. You pass, using the power of Turn Order to stay in the auction. All other players pass. You are now first in the new turn order, at 0 cost. Turn Order has gained you +4 positions. Even if the second player bids $3, and all other players pass, you gain +3 positions, at zero cost. Remember, it is in the interest of early players to bid something, otherwise they naturally move down in the turn order, so if other players use optimal strategy, your benefeit is maximized.
b) You are the first player. You bid your maximum $3. No one else bids, and therefore you retain your positioning in first place. Turn Order has not gained or cost you anything.

c) You are the first player. You bid a minimum $1. There are two overcall bids, of $2 and $3 respectively, from the next two players. The final two players pass. Now you pass using Turn Order. The second player also passes, and you finally pass, gaining second place. Turn Order has gained you +1 positions.

Compare scenarios b) and c). If you have Turn Order, you can now choose to aim for second place in turn order at a savings of $2, so Turn Order has allowed you greater freedom of Choice for relatively equal outcomes. If other players bid or raise, it essentially predisposes you about second place, at a significant cost savings.

d) You are the last player. All players in front of you pass. You are now the first player in the new turn order, at no cost. Turn Order has gained nothing, since you would have been first regardless.

e) You are the last player. The first player has made his maximum bid of $3. All other players have passed. You decide to pass, as your maximum is also $3. The first player is not required to raise his bid, so you must pass again, leaving you in second place. Turn Order has gained nothing, since you would have been second regardless.

f) You are the last player. The first player has made a minimum bid of $1, followed by $2 and $3 from the next two players. The person ahead of you passes. You also pass, using Turn Order. Now the first two players pass, and so do you, leaving you in second position. Turn Order has gained you +2 positions.

g) You are the last player. Two players ahead of you pass and two players ahead of you bid $1 and $2 respectively. You now pass, using Turn Order. One player ahead of you bids $3, and all other players pass, including you since your maximum is also $3. Turn Order has saved you $3, but cost you �1 position.

Sum up the savings for the early versus the late turn order scenarios. The overwhelming advantages in both cost and position occur in scenarios a), b) and c), when you are the player using Turn Order and bidding early. I grant that in scenario g), Turn Order, although a mixed blessing, but does allow a certain amount of flexibility. It still does not compare to the flexibility afforded to the first player by the choice between scenario b) or c).

This does not mean that one should pick Turn Order when you are first in the bidding: especially when Locomotive, Urbanisation, and Engineer can gain you both higher income and scoring opportunities. Turn Order is not inherently as valuable as these actions in my opinion. It does mean, however, that the value of Turn Order decreases the longer it is left unchosen, and conversely, that it is more powerful if chosen by someone early in the turn order.

Karl Reiner

19 réponses à “[MAJ] Que font r�ellement les actions dans Age Of Steam ? [EDIT]”

  1. Frdrick dit :

    Karl Reiner.

  2. djoul dit :

    pour Turn order, je suis plutôt d\’accord avec toi, c\’est plus efficace quand tu joues en dernier. Quand tu parles dans les premiers, il faut enchérir avant de l\’utiliser, ce qui limite son intérêt.

  3. ReiXou dit :

    Je pense que chez Karl, ce ne sont pas de fanatiques des encheres. Ca monte pas à 12, quoi.
    Il le confirmera dans les articles à venir.

  4. Rody dit :

    Il est clairt que que si le dernier joueur prend Turn Order, il a un avantage considérable sur les autres joueurs (vu qu\’il laisse passer un deux tours complets de jeu avant d\’enchérir ou passer pour de vrai). Génralement, il s\’en plus que très bien sans avoir à débourser un centime.

  5. Le Troll dit :

    Locomotive : action la plus sous-évaluée.
    Il joue contre qui le gars, les castors juniors ?

  6. Le Troll dit :

    pour le turn order, Reixou a raison, tout dépend du type de joueur en face de toi. (plus ou moins agressif durant les enchères)

  7. Frdrick dit :

    Non non, dans tous les cas, je n\’ai jamais vu quelqu\’un gagné une enchère….. et prendre turn order !!!
    Même en 2ème, ca serait mal joué.
    Et je suis d\’accord avec toi pour la loco, il doit jouer contre les castors junior. Je ne vois que ça…

  8. Frdrick dit :

    J\’aimerais bien jouer contre lui, en fait. Il ecnhérit… pour prendre Turn Order :-) et être bien placer pour prendre au prochain tour… turn order… et être bien placé pour prendre au tour suivant le turn order etc.
    Moi, s\’il me laisse la loco, ca me va :-)
    Qu\’il vienne à Bourge, il va comprendre que Drax et Arthémix vont lui voler son Turn Order pour 13 s\’il le faut ;-)

  9. Grunt dit :

    Je me trompe peut-être mais en plus Turn Order peut devenir encore moins intéressant si les autres joueurs ne sont pas trop véhément dans les enchères (genre en commençant à 1 et en montant de 1 en 1)…

  10. Le Troll dit :

    tu as raison Grunt, et ces bougres de joueurs ne manquent pas de le faire, dès que quelqu\’un a pris turn order le tour précédent.

  11. Grunt dit :

    Bon en tout cas merci pour ces trad\’, ça me sera utile parce que bon après une quinzaine de parties à AoS, je suis brillament à 0 victoire :) Heureusement qu\’il y a Le Troll et Frédérick à Bourges, ça me permettra de gagner :P (bon je rentre me cacher)

  12. ReiXou dit :

    Karl a expliqué son sentiment sur le Turn Order. J\’ai mis sa réponse est en dessous de la brève.

  13. Le Troll dit :

    Effectivement, il a raison. C\’est plus intéressant au début du tour dans son exemple. Mais est-ce que ça le reste si les joueurs montent jusqu\’à 6 ou 7 ? (en même temps ça n\’arrive pas souvent)
    Je dirais que la moyenne pour être premier joueur c\’est aux alentour de 5 non ?

  14. djoul dit :

    Enfin si je suis premier joueur et que je prends turn order pour me positionner correctement lors de la prochaine enchère, je perds le bénéfice de choisir une action plus intéressante…Quel est l\’intérêt de remporter une enchère pour prendre Turn Order afin de se retrouver en bonne position pour pas cher lors de la suivante ?

  15. ReiXou dit :

    Je crois que tu es à coté de ce que veut dire Karl. Son propos c\’est :
    \”Turn Order est + efficace s\’il est pris tot\” (arguments à l\’appui)

    Son propos n\’est pas :
    \”Turn Order est meilleur que Loco ou Urba\”.

    En gros il prend l\’action en elle même, pas par rapport aux autres.

  16. djoul dit :

    Oui j\’ai compris ce qu\’il voulait dire, mais même si le Turn Order est plus efficace en premiere position (ce dont je ne suis toujours pas persuadé, par exemple le cas a, tout le monde passe, jamais vu. le cas b, il ne l\’utilise pas, donc pour moi il te coute une action que tu n\’as pas pris à la place. Le cas c peut aussi se produire quand on est pas premier), il est plus puissant choisi en dernier qu\’en premier (par rapport aux rôles dispo au moment où on le prends)

  17. djoul dit :

    Je développe un peu :
    a) Jamais vu tout le monde passer.

    b) Coût d’un rôle non choisi au tour précédent, et donc probablement de la somme misée pour finir premier à la précédente enchère.

    c) Plus efficace si je suis après : les 3 premiers joueurs misent 1, 2 et 3 $, je passe, on se retrouve à peu près dans la même situation sauf que je n’ai même pas enchéri d’un 1 $.

    d) Comme dans le cas a), jamais vu une situation pareil.

    e) Ok.

    f) Ouaip, une bonne utilisation du turn order

    g) Euh pas d’accord sur la perte d’une position, quand on choisit turn order généralement on vise pas la seconde place pour 0, pas la première, parce qu’il faudrait payer de toute manière.

    Donc si je résume, pour moi :
    Je suis premier et je prends Turn Order, en occultant le cas où tout le monde passe (ça vous est déjà arrivé ?), il y a un cas où il me sert, mais pas plus (voir moins) que si je ne suis pas premier, et un cas où il m’est complètement inutile.
    Si je suis dernier, il y a un cas où il ne me sert pas (second en passant en dernier), et deux cas (un et deux tour(s) d’enchère) où il est efficace.

  18. djoul dit :

    dans le g), il faut bien sur lire \”généralement on vise la seconde place\”, et pas \”on ne vise pas\”…

  19. target dit :

    ce que je trouve étrange c\’est le plafond à 3 dollars pour ses exemples. Dans nos parties, c\’est plutot 5-6 $ au début de partie, 7-8 $ au milieu et 10-12 $ à la fin.
    Et en effet, je trouve bizarre de profiter d\’une 1ere place aux enchères pour se précipiter sur le turn order, en laissant loco ou urba.
    L\’ordre du tour est surtout important pour le choix des actions, \”turn order\” est pas vraiment une action, juste la garantie d\’une place correcte au prochain tour. C\’est un peu gâché.

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