Karl Reiner, suite. Apr�s avoir expliqu� pourquoi l\’argent est si rare dans Age Of Steam la semaine derni�re, Karl �voque cette semaine ce que font r�ellement les actions individuelles dans Age Of Steam. Tout un programme.
Ce qui peut �tre l\’occasion de lire (ou relire en cas de d�soeuvrement extr�me) ma tentative sur le m�me sujet, notamment en contradiction compl�te sur l\’action Turn Order.
Un de nous deux se plante, c\’est sur, mais qui ?
[EDIT 18/3]
Karl r�pond sur la question du
Turn Order (en anglais pour l\’instant, je traduirais si je trouve le courage et le temps). Prenez votre temps pour lire, c\’est argument�. voici ce qu\’il m\’a envoy� :I would be glad to explain why the Turn Order action is more valuable when you are already early in the turn order. We can do several cost-benefeit comparisons to illustrate. Bear in mind that the benefeits and costs are BOTH financial and positional.
First, let�s look at what happens to turn order in bidding sequences where Turn Order is not chosen at all, using a 5 player game as an example. I have seven scenarios, all of which assume that all players� maximum bid is $3.
a) You are the first player. You pass. Now you are the last player in the new turn order. There is of course no cost to you, but you have descended -4 positions on the order.
b) You are the first player. You bid your maximum value, let us say $3. No one else bids, and therefore you retain your positioning in first place. The financial penalty you pay is $3, with no drop or gain in turn order.
c) You are the first player. You bid a minimum amount, let us say $1. There are two overcall bids, of $2 and $3 respectively, from the next two players. The final two players pass. Now you decide to pass, as you cannot exceed your maximum. You are now in 3rd position, and have expended $1 for a net drop of -2 positions.
d) You are the last player. All players in front of you pass. You are now the first player in the new turn order, at no cost, for a net gain of +4 positions.
e) You are the last player. The first player has made his maximum bid of $3. All other players have passed. You decide to pass, as your maximum is also Three dollars. You are now second on turn order, at no cost, for a net gain of +3 positions.
f) You are the last player. The first player has made a minimum bid of $1, followed by $2 and $3 from the next two players. The person ahead of you passes. You also pass, moving you up from fifth to fourth spot, at no cost, for a gain of +1 positions.
g) You are the last player. Two players ahead of you pass and two players ahead of you bid $1 and $2 respectively. You now bid your maximum $3. All other players pass, and you are now first in turn order, at a cost of $3, and a net gain of +4 positions.
Note that I have chosen to omit a scenario where the first 3 players pass and the fourth one bids his maximum. That scenario is damaging to the first 3 players, who drop the maximum amount, and damaging to the fourth player, who is probably overpaying to move up from second place to first. Even should this occur, the last place player will move to second place for a cost of nothing
As can be seen in the first three scenarios, the natural tendency is to fall in turn order, from first to last, or to require a fairly hefty bid to retain your position. In contrast, the last bidder has a natural and overwhelming tendency to rise in the turn order regardless of whether he is making a bid. The last player will especially benefeit when players early in the turn order exert the greatest pressure on other bidders by bidding close to their own maximum dollar value. This is important to note: again, when other players are using best-play practices, the last player will move sharply forward in turn order at no cost, whereas players earlier in the turn order will move downwards.
Note that I have chosen to omit a scenario where the first 3 players pass and the fourth one bids his maximum. That scenario is damaging to the first 3 players, who drop the maximum amount, and damaging to the fourth player, who is probably overpaying to move up from second place to first. Even should this occur, the last place player will move to second place for no cost, as per the �buoyancy� factor illustrated in cases d), e), f) and g).
Now consider all seven cases again, this time using Turn Order.
a) You are the first player. You pass, using the power of Turn Order to stay in the auction. All other players pass. You are now first in the new turn order, at 0 cost. Turn Order has gained you +4 positions. Even if the second player bids $3, and all other players pass, you gain +3 positions, at zero cost. Remember, it is in the interest of early players to bid something, otherwise they naturally move down in the turn order, so if other players use optimal strategy, your benefeit is maximized.
b) You are the first player. You bid your maximum $3. No one else bids, and therefore you retain your positioning in first place. Turn Order has not gained or cost you anything.
c) You are the first player. You bid a minimum $1. There are two overcall bids, of $2 and $3 respectively, from the next two players. The final two players pass. Now you pass using Turn Order. The second player also passes, and you finally pass, gaining second place. Turn Order has gained you +1 positions.
Compare scenarios b) and c). If you have Turn Order, you can now choose to aim for second place in turn order at a savings of $2, so Turn Order has allowed you greater freedom of Choice for relatively equal outcomes. If other players bid or raise, it essentially predisposes you about second place, at a significant cost savings.
d) You are the last player. All players in front of you pass. You are now the first player in the new turn order, at no cost. Turn Order has gained nothing, since you would have been first regardless.
e) You are the last player. The first player has made his maximum bid of $3. All other players have passed. You decide to pass, as your maximum is also $3. The first player is not required to raise his bid, so you must pass again, leaving you in second place. Turn Order has gained nothing, since you would have been second regardless.
f) You are the last player. The first player has made a minimum bid of $1, followed by $2 and $3 from the next two players. The person ahead of you passes. You also pass, using Turn Order. Now the first two players pass, and so do you, leaving you in second position. Turn Order has gained you +2 positions.
g) You are the last player. Two players ahead of you pass and two players ahead of you bid $1 and $2 respectively. You now pass, using Turn Order. One player ahead of you bids $3, and all other players pass, including you since your maximum is also $3. Turn Order has saved you $3, but cost you �1 position.
Sum up the savings for the early versus the late turn order scenarios. The overwhelming advantages in both cost and position occur in scenarios a), b) and c), when you are the player using Turn Order and bidding early. I grant that in scenario g), Turn Order, although a mixed blessing, but does allow a certain amount of flexibility. It still does not compare to the flexibility afforded to the first player by the choice between scenario b) or c).
This does not mean that one should pick Turn Order when you are first in the bidding: especially when Locomotive, Urbanisation, and Engineer can gain you both higher income and scoring opportunities. Turn Order is not inherently as valuable as these actions in my opinion. It does mean, however, that the value of Turn Order decreases the longer it is left unchosen, and conversely, that it is more powerful if chosen by someone early in the turn order.
Karl Reiner
Cet article a été publié
le Mercredi 16 mars 2005 à 23:19 et est classé dans Géneral.
Vous pouvez suivre les réponses reçues par cet article grâce au fil RSS 2.0.
Commentaires et trackbacks sont tous deux fermés pour le moment.
3.43 n online order viagra
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
order prescription viagra
Cialis Canadian Drugs what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
Viagra On Prescription viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
Viagra Express Delivery In Sydney order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
2buy Levitra Online viagra pill pictures!
find viagra free sites edinburgh
Keywords Cialis Levitra Sales Viagra drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis
Cialis 100 "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
Canadian Levitra Pharmacy best cheap viagra?
lily icos cialis online
Canadian Drug Viagra 3 buy generic viagra online
lowest price on viagra!
Sealis levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
A Kamagra Saljes Sverige Sv cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
Viagra Drug Store Best Buys 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
E Kop Viagra Pa Internet Sv levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
No Prescription Cialis Pills order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
cialis discount card
Discount Sale Viagra find viagra free sites edinburgh
drug effects more side viagra
E Hvor Kan Jeg Kjope Viagra Nb lowest cost cialis
"generic cialis pills coupon"
Discount Generic Viagra Volume "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
Where Can I Order Generic Viagra lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
Cialis India Pharmacy lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us
Propecia Memoria "cialis perscription drug stores"
cialis cheap online direct
Viagra Cost Best Price Viagra best cheap viagra viagra viagra
3 discount generic viagra
Comprar Cialis Online En Venezuela what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
E Kjop Av Viagra I Norge Nb viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
A Hvor Kober Jeg Viagra Da order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
E Cialis Generika In Deutschen Apotheken Da viagra pill pictures!
find viagra free sites edinburgh
Buy Viagra Prescription America drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis
Levitra Pills "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
Generic Viagra Pills Best Price best cheap viagra?
lily icos cialis online
Paypal To Buy Viagra 3 buy generic viagra online
lowest price on viagra!
E Generisk Viagra Biverkningar Sv levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
Viagra Generic 100mg cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
Prix Du Viagra 50 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
About Viagra Pill levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
Where Do You Buy Viagra Online order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
Online Drug Purchase Levitra cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Le Weekender Online Pharmacy find viagra free sites edinburgh
black market viagra in canada Viagra Substitute Over Counter lowest cost cialis
dose low viagra cialis drug
Comprar Viagra En Herbolarios "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
Womens Viagra Uk lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
E Vendita Viagra In Italia It lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us
A Viagra Apotheke Teuer Da "cialis perscription drug stores"
cialis cheap online direct
Order Pfizer Viagra With Mastercard best cheap viagra viagra viagra
3 discount generic viagra
A Donde Comprar Cialis En Farmacia Es what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
E Comprare Viagra Online E Sicuro It viagra uk retailers
buy levitra in europe
Soft Pill Cialis order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
Cialis viagra pill pictures!
find viagra free sites edinburgh
A Viagra In Der Apotheke Ohne Rezept Da drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis
Hay Viagra De Mujeres "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
Viagra 2013 best cheap viagra?
lily icos cialis online
E Kob Propecia Billigt Nb 3 buy generic viagra online
lowest price on viagra!
A Viagra Generico Con Pagamento In Contrassegno It levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
Cialis 20mg Overnight cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
A Acquistare Cialis Generico Farmacia It 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
From Overnight Shipping Us Viagra levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
E Billigviagra Se Da order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
Drug Interactions Viagra Valium cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Quiero Comprar Viagra find viagra free sites edinburgh
black market viagra in canada
Generic Viagra Generic Cialis Pills lowest cost cialis
"generic cialis pills coupon"
Cialis Drug For Erectile Dysfunction "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
Viagra In The Us lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
Comprar Viagra Online Contrareembolso Espaa lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us
Comprar Viagra En Girona "cialis perscription drug stores"
viagra prescription orders
Viagra Buy Online best cheap viagra viagra viagra
3 discount generic viagra
Drugs Similiar Viagra what is the drug viagra?
viagra 100mg free shipping
Buy Viagra Phentermine Online Pharmacy viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
Cialis Viagra Packs Cheap Fast order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight Safewaymedstore viagra pill pictures!
find viagra pages edinburgh free
A Kob Viagra Tyrkiet Da drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis
Viagra Buy It "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
Where To Buy Novadex best cheap viagra?
lily icos cialis online Levitra Sold Online 3 buy generic viagra online
discount viagra online?
Prescription Free Viagra levitra online us
order viagra overnight shipping
3.43 N Online Order Viagra cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
Buy Cialis Tablet 3 discount generic viagra
buy cialis money order
Buy Cialis From Usa Online levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
Vipps Pharmacy Canada Viagra order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
Order Viagra Prescription cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Can You Buy Viagra Over The Counter In Uk find viagra free sites edinburgh
black market viagra in canada
99 Viagra Free Consultations Now lowest cost cialis
"generic cialis pills coupon"
Viagra Maintain Erection After Ejaculation "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
E Acheter Priligy Fr lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
Viagra Online 50 Mg lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us
A Skal Man Have Recept Kobe Viagra Da "cialis perscription drug stores"
cialis cheap online direct
Levitra Online Pharmacy Canada best cheap viagra viagra viagra
order prescription viagra
200 Mg Viagra what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
Viagra Suppositories Village Pharmacy viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
Como Comprar Levitra Sin Receta En Chile order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
A Cialis 5 Mg Precios Es viagra pill pictures!
find viagra pages edinburgh free
Viagra Expiration Drug drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis Buy Cheap Generic Viagra Online "generic cialis pills coupon"
buy cialis generic
Cialis Free Fedex best cheap viagra?
generic viagra for sale!
Acheter Du Cialis En Pharmacie 3 buy generic viagra online
discount viagra online?
Drug New Replace Viagra levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
Viagra Free Order cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
Prescription Free Cialis 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
Generic Pharmacy Viagra levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
Online Pharmacy Tadacip order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
Kamagra Viagra Cheap cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Telephone Orders Cialis find viagra free sites edinburgh
drug effects more side viagra
Donde Puedo Comprar Levitra En Argentina lowest cost cialis
"generic cialis pills coupon"
Viagra And Unicure Pharmacy "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
Sildenafil Citrate Solubility lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
Viagra Online In Us lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us "cialis perscription drug stores"
description of viagra pill
Viagra Vaniqa Prescription best cheap viagra viagra viagra
3 discount generic viagra
Does Medicare Pay For Viagra what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
Drug Effects Levitra Side viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
Cialis Dapoxetine Online Canada order cialis tampa florida
female viagra uk A Viagra Polen Apotheke Da viagra pill pictures!
find viagra pages edinburgh free
Free Viagra Australia drug effects more side viagra
purchase cialis uk;
A Att Kopa Levitra Sverige Sv "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
Generis Cialis best cheap viagra?
generic viagra for sale! A Costo Cialis Francia It 3 buy generic viagra online
discount viagra online?
Levitra Mujeres levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
A Maste Man Ha Recept For Att Kopa Propecia Sv cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
E Www Atarax Fr 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
Canadian Pharmacy Paypal levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
1528 Levitra Cost 2201 order levitra on line
order cialis tampa florida
Cialis Cheapest cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Cheap Cheap Viagra Viagra find viagra free sites edinburgh
black market viagra in canada
Cost Of Levitra In Uk lowest cost cialis
"generic cialis pills coupon"
Levitra From Canadian Pharmacy "female viagra drug"
best cheap viagra?
Order Viagra lily icos cialis online
3 buy generic viagra online
Buy Cialis Next Day Delivery lowest price on viagra!
levitra online us
Levitra Pro "cialis perscription drug stores"
viagra prescription orders
E Prix Viagra Pharmacie Algerie Fr best cheap viagra viagra viagra
3 discount generic viagra
Levitra Online Andorra what is the drug viagra?
levitra order prescription
Compren El Levitra Viagra viagra uk retailers
order levitra on line
Viagra Viagra Buy Search Find order cialis tampa florida
cialis overnight
Liquid Cialis Buy viagra pill pictures!
find viagra free sites edinburgh
2cheap Levitra Online drug effects more side viagra
lowest cost cialis
Comprar Viagra Lisboa "generic cialis pills coupon"
"female viagra drug"
A Vendita Cialis In Francia It best cheap viagra?
lily icos cialis online
Genuine Priligy 3 buy generic viagra online
lowest price on viagra!
Canadian Cheap Viagra Pills levitra online us
"cialis perscription drug stores"
Cialis Fed Ex cialis cheap online direct
best cheap viagra viagra viagra
Hay Priligy Generico 3 discount generic viagra
what is the drug viagra?
E Www Cialis Fr levitra order prescription
viagra uk retailers
Buy Domain Levitra Info order levitra on line
buy levitra on sale online
Price Quote For Viagra cialis overnight
viagra pill pictures!
Kamagra Shipping Australia find viagra free sites edinburgh
drug effects more side viagra
Levitra Online Next Day Delivery lowest cost cialis
17 mars 2005 at 0:23
Karl Reiner.
17 mars 2005 at 9:31
pour Turn order, je suis plutôt d\’accord avec toi, c\’est plus efficace quand tu joues en dernier. Quand tu parles dans les premiers, il faut enchérir avant de l\’utiliser, ce qui limite son intérêt.
17 mars 2005 at 9:34
Je pense que chez Karl, ce ne sont pas de fanatiques des encheres. Ca monte pas à 12, quoi.
Il le confirmera dans les articles à venir.
17 mars 2005 at 10:10
Il est clairt que que si le dernier joueur prend Turn Order, il a un avantage considérable sur les autres joueurs (vu qu\’il laisse passer un deux tours complets de jeu avant d\’enchérir ou passer pour de vrai). Génralement, il s\’en plus que très bien sans avoir à débourser un centime.
17 mars 2005 at 10:44
Locomotive : action la plus sous-évaluée.
Il joue contre qui le gars, les castors juniors ?
17 mars 2005 at 10:50
pour le turn order, Reixou a raison, tout dépend du type de joueur en face de toi. (plus ou moins agressif durant les enchères)
17 mars 2005 at 12:26
Non non, dans tous les cas, je n\’ai jamais vu quelqu\’un gagné une enchère….. et prendre turn order !!!
Même en 2ème, ca serait mal joué.
Et je suis d\’accord avec toi pour la loco, il doit jouer contre les castors junior. Je ne vois que ça…
17 mars 2005 at 12:28
J\’aimerais bien jouer contre lui, en fait. Il ecnhérit… pour prendre Turn Order et être bien placer pour prendre au prochain tour… turn order… et être bien placé pour prendre au tour suivant le turn order etc.
Moi, s\’il me laisse la loco, ca me va
Qu\’il vienne à Bourge, il va comprendre que Drax et Arthémix vont lui voler son Turn Order pour 13 s\’il le faut
17 mars 2005 at 12:37
Je me trompe peut-être mais en plus Turn Order peut devenir encore moins intéressant si les autres joueurs ne sont pas trop véhément dans les enchères (genre en commençant à 1 et en montant de 1 en 1)…
17 mars 2005 at 13:42
tu as raison Grunt, et ces bougres de joueurs ne manquent pas de le faire, dès que quelqu\’un a pris turn order le tour précédent.
17 mars 2005 at 19:33
Bon en tout cas merci pour ces trad\’, ça me sera utile parce que bon après une quinzaine de parties à AoS, je suis brillament à 0 victoire Heureusement qu\’il y a Le Troll et Frédérick à Bourges, ça me permettra de gagner (bon je rentre me cacher)
18 mars 2005 at 9:18
Karl a expliqué son sentiment sur le Turn Order. J\’ai mis sa réponse est en dessous de la brève.
18 mars 2005 at 10:13
Effectivement, il a raison. C\’est plus intéressant au début du tour dans son exemple. Mais est-ce que ça le reste si les joueurs montent jusqu\’à 6 ou 7 ? (en même temps ça n\’arrive pas souvent)
Je dirais que la moyenne pour être premier joueur c\’est aux alentour de 5 non ?
18 mars 2005 at 10:58
Enfin si je suis premier joueur et que je prends turn order pour me positionner correctement lors de la prochaine enchère, je perds le bénéfice de choisir une action plus intéressante…Quel est l\’intérêt de remporter une enchère pour prendre Turn Order afin de se retrouver en bonne position pour pas cher lors de la suivante ?
18 mars 2005 at 11:03
Je crois que tu es à coté de ce que veut dire Karl. Son propos c\’est :
\”Turn Order est + efficace s\’il est pris tot\” (arguments à l\’appui)
Son propos n\’est pas :
\”Turn Order est meilleur que Loco ou Urba\”.
En gros il prend l\’action en elle même, pas par rapport aux autres.
18 mars 2005 at 11:20
Oui j\’ai compris ce qu\’il voulait dire, mais même si le Turn Order est plus efficace en premiere position (ce dont je ne suis toujours pas persuadé, par exemple le cas a, tout le monde passe, jamais vu. le cas b, il ne l\’utilise pas, donc pour moi il te coute une action que tu n\’as pas pris à la place. Le cas c peut aussi se produire quand on est pas premier), il est plus puissant choisi en dernier qu\’en premier (par rapport aux rôles dispo au moment où on le prends)
18 mars 2005 at 12:29
Je développe un peu :
a) Jamais vu tout le monde passer.
b) Coût d’un rôle non choisi au tour précédent, et donc probablement de la somme misée pour finir premier à la précédente enchère.
c) Plus efficace si je suis après : les 3 premiers joueurs misent 1, 2 et 3 $, je passe, on se retrouve à peu près dans la même situation sauf que je n’ai même pas enchéri d’un 1 $.
d) Comme dans le cas a), jamais vu une situation pareil.
e) Ok.
f) Ouaip, une bonne utilisation du turn order
g) Euh pas d’accord sur la perte d’une position, quand on choisit turn order généralement on vise pas la seconde place pour 0, pas la première, parce qu’il faudrait payer de toute manière.
Donc si je résume, pour moi :
Je suis premier et je prends Turn Order, en occultant le cas où tout le monde passe (ça vous est déjà arrivé ?), il y a un cas où il me sert, mais pas plus (voir moins) que si je ne suis pas premier, et un cas où il m’est complètement inutile.
Si je suis dernier, il y a un cas où il ne me sert pas (second en passant en dernier), et deux cas (un et deux tour(s) d’enchère) où il est efficace.
18 mars 2005 at 14:45
dans le g), il faut bien sur lire \”généralement on vise la seconde place\”, et pas \”on ne vise pas\”…
21 mars 2005 at 10:31
ce que je trouve étrange c\’est le plafond à 3 dollars pour ses exemples. Dans nos parties, c\’est plutot 5-6 $ au début de partie, 7-8 $ au milieu et 10-12 $ à la fin.
Et en effet, je trouve bizarre de profiter d\’une 1ere place aux enchères pour se précipiter sur le turn order, en laissant loco ou urba.
L\’ordre du tour est surtout important pour le choix des actions, \”turn order\” est pas vraiment une action, juste la garantie d\’une place correcte au prochain tour. C\’est un peu gâché.